PanzerAce.net Forum: Opinions on Generaloberst Hermann Hoth

Author

Message

Papa Wehr
SS-Sturmbannführer

Komödieoffizier

Joined: 28 June 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3184

Posted: 15 July 2007 at 16:48

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/ghctrial1.htm#THE%20GERMAN%20HIGH%20COMMAND%20TRIAL

IP Logged

Tiger_S04
SS-Oberstgruppenführer

’Der Panzerkommandant’

Joined: 28 September 2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1259

Posted: 15 July 2007 at 18:16

I think we could have a decent debate here - but if you could HvM please post any images within one post.

IP Logged

Papa Wehr
SS-Sturmbannführer

Komödieoffizier

Joined: 28 June 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3184

Posted: 15 July 2007 at 18:20

HvM

Reducing the size of your sig. might unclutter things also!

Edited by Papa Wehr - 15 July 2007 at 18:20

IP Logged

HvM
SS-Sturmbannführer

Joined: 12 January 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2640

Posted: 16 July 2007 at 05:34

Thanks for the link Wehr, but unfortunately it does not contain the minutes of the trial in which his allegded guilt is proven or mis-proven in the eyes of different people. Here is the main charge -

On the 17^th November, 1941, the accused Hoth, as Commander-in-Chief of the 17^th Army, issued an order in implementation of the same Reichenau Order, which clearly showed his ruthless attitude towards the civilian population. Numerous murders and atrocities were also committed against the civilian population by units under his command pursuant to the Barbarossa Jurisdiction Order and the directives concerning Partisan Warfare with the knowledge, approval or express orders of the accused. The evidence also showed that the SD perpetrated a mass killing of 1,224 Jews, 63 political agitators and 30 saboteurs and partisans on the 14^th December, 1941, at Artemousk which was located within the accused’s area of command. The accused stated that he had criticised his chief of staff for not advising him that the SD operated within his area.

The evidence showed, however, that even after he had acquired knowledge of the activities of the SD within his area of command, his own army police, over whom he had command authority, turned over civilian prisoners and Jews to the SD as a regular practice right up to the time when he relinquished his command. The evidence showed that the accused Reinhardt knew as early as September, 1941, that the SD was operating within his area of command. It also showed that not only did his army know about the activities of the SD, but also actively co-operated with it in sending suspects of all kinds, including civilian men, women and children. Thousands were in this way sent to Lublin and Auschwitz concentration camps:

While of course Hoth's alledged participation with the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were criminal, on the part of the execution of communists, it would be interesting if Red Army Commanders were brought to trial for the execution of Nazis in Gemrany in 1945!

Tumbleweed alert! - Papa Wehr -

IP Logged

Panther44
SS-Untersturmführer

Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 830

Posted: 16 July 2007 at 23:09

This trial had to have been at the request of the Soviets, why not just hand Hoth over to them? I mean it appears that everything Hoth is accused of happened in the east.

Did Hoth spend any of the war years in the west?

"Ten tanks attacking over open ground posed no big problem for a well sited Panther."
Horst Zobel, Commander 1st Battalion Panzer Regiment Muncheberg

IP Logged

HvM
SS-Sturmbannführer

Joined: 12 January 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2640

Posted: 18 August 2007 at 11:35

Did Hoth spend any of the war years in the west?

Yes, in the French campaign in 1940.

K

Tumbleweed alert! - Papa Wehr -

IP Logged

Langemarck27
SS-Sturmmann

Joined: 25 January 2008
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 54

Posted: 27 January 2008 at 16:52

A late reply from Flanders on this one.

In my opinion Hoth should always be considered one of the great German commanders of WWII. With a bit of luck and some coöperation from HQ, he could well have made the difference at Stalingrad when the 6th Army was trapped in the Kessel...

I am proud to have his autographed Hoffmann card in my collection!

Each Soldier's Grave is occupied Territory!!

IP Logged

panzerivan
SS-Sturmmann

Joined: 23 March 2008
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 47

Posted: 24 March 2008 at 09:40

A very good fieldmarshall and certainly no warcriminal.He certainly did not order any warcrimes to be committed.The charges against were very weak.

Edited by panzerivan - 24 March 2008 at 10:13

IP Logged

panzerivan
SS-Sturmmann

Joined: 23 March 2008
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 47

Posted: 24 March 2008 at 10:17

Some more detail on his dismissal. One of those competent fieldmarshalls and generals that were dismissed becuse of retreating even if it was necessary.

During November 1943, strong forces of the Russian 1st Ukranian Front, attacked the 4th Panzer Army to the west of Kiev. Hoth was forced to withdraw, as his Panzer Army was torn into three widely separated groups by the Russian attacks. Despite the fact that the situation was restored in mid November, Hoth was relieved of his command and sent on leave. In December 1943, he was dismissed entirely and spent the remainder of the war in retirement.

Edited by panzerivan - 24 March 2008 at 10:18

IP Logged

Jack O'Brien
SS-Sturmmann

Joined: 01 September 2009
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 58

Posted: 19 October 2009 at 06:51

Hoth certainly looks the part of "German officer". He sounds like an excellent commander. As for Nuremburg everyone knows that was a joke because the Germans were the only ones on trial. Why weren't the allied bomber command put on trial for murdering huge numbers of civilians. Where do you draw the line between liberation and devastation? Ie the Allied idea of liberating French cities eg Caen was to blow them off the map.

Hoth has always been one of my favourites... PS and for star wars fans the fact his name is Hoth only makes him all the more awesome lol

"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it" Erwin Rommel

IP Logged

Oberkommando der Wehrmacht
PanzerAce.net Forum : The Others : Oberkommando der Wehrmacht

Topic: Opinions on Generaloberst Hermann Hoth
	<< Prev Page of 3 Next >>

Author	Message
Papa Wehr SS-Sturmbannführer Komödieoffizier Joined: 28 June 2005 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3184	Posted: 15 July 2007 at 16:48
	http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/ghctrial1.htm#THE%20GERMAN%20HIGH%20COMMAND%20TRIAL

	IP Logged

Tiger_S04 SS-Oberstgruppenführer ’Der Panzerkommandant’ Joined: 28 September 2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1259	Posted: 15 July 2007 at 18:16
	I think we could have a decent debate here - but if you could HvM please post any images within one post.
	IP Logged

Papa Wehr SS-Sturmbannführer Komödieoffizier Joined: 28 June 2005 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3184	Posted: 15 July 2007 at 18:20
	HvM Reducing the size of your sig. might unclutter things also! Edited by Papa Wehr - 15 July 2007 at 18:20

	IP Logged

HvM SS-Sturmbannführer Joined: 12 January 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2640	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 05:34
	Thanks for the link Wehr, but unfortunately it does not contain the minutes of the trial in which his allegded guilt is proven or mis-proven in the eyes of different people. Here is the main charge - On the 17^th November, 1941, the accused Hoth, as Commander-in-Chief of the 17^th Army, issued an order in implementation of the same Reichenau Order, which clearly showed his ruthless attitude towards the civilian population. Numerous murders and atrocities were also committed against the civilian population by units under his command pursuant to the Barbarossa Jurisdiction Order and the directives concerning Partisan Warfare with the knowledge, approval or express orders of the accused. The evidence also showed that the SD perpetrated a mass killing of 1,224 Jews, 63 political agitators and 30 saboteurs and partisans on the 14^th December, 1941, at Artemousk which was located within the accused’s area of command. The accused stated that he had criticised his chief of staff for not advising him that the SD operated within his area. The evidence showed, however, that even after he had acquired knowledge of the activities of the SD within his area of command, his own army police, over whom he had command authority, turned over civilian prisoners and Jews to the SD as a regular practice right up to the time when he relinquished his command. The evidence showed that the accused Reinhardt knew as early as September, 1941, that the SD was operating within his area of command. It also showed that not only did his army know about the activities of the SD, but also actively co-operated with it in sending suspects of all kinds, including civilian men, women and children. Thousands were in this way sent to Lublin and Auschwitz concentration camps: While of course Hoth's alledged participation with the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were criminal, on the part of the execution of communists, it would be interesting if Red Army Commanders were brought to trial for the execution of Nazis in Gemrany in 1945! K
	*Tumbleweed alert! - Papa Wehr -*
	IP Logged

Panther44 SS-Untersturmführer Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 830	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 23:09
	This trial had to have been at the request of the Soviets, why not just hand Hoth over to them? I mean it appears that everything Hoth is accused of happened in the east. Did Hoth spend any of the war years in the west?
	"Ten tanks attacking over open ground posed no big problem for a well sited Panther." Horst Zobel, Commander 1st Battalion Panzer Regiment Muncheberg
	IP Logged

HvM SS-Sturmbannführer Joined: 12 January 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2640	Posted: 18 August 2007 at 11:35
	Did Hoth spend any of the war years in the west? Yes, in the French campaign in 1940. K
	*Tumbleweed alert! - Papa Wehr -*
	IP Logged

Langemarck27 SS-Sturmmann Joined: 25 January 2008 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 54	Posted: 27 January 2008 at 16:52
	A late reply from Flanders on this one. In my opinion Hoth should always be considered one of the great German commanders of WWII. With a bit of luck and some coöperation from HQ, he could well have made the difference at Stalingrad when the 6th Army was trapped in the Kessel... I am proud to have his autographed Hoffmann card in my collection!
	Each Soldier's Grave is occupied Territory!!
	IP Logged

panzerivan SS-Sturmmann Joined: 23 March 2008 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 47	Posted: 24 March 2008 at 09:40
	A very good fieldmarshall and certainly no warcriminal.He certainly did not order any warcrimes to be committed.The charges against were very weak. Edited by panzerivan - 24 March 2008 at 10:13
	IP Logged

panzerivan SS-Sturmmann Joined: 23 March 2008 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 47	Posted: 24 March 2008 at 10:17
	Some more detail on his dismissal. One of those competent fieldmarshalls and generals that were dismissed becuse of retreating even if it was necessary. During November 1943, strong forces of the Russian 1st Ukranian Front, attacked the 4th Panzer Army to the west of Kiev. Hoth was forced to withdraw, as his Panzer Army was torn into three widely separated groups by the Russian attacks. Despite the fact that the situation was restored in mid November, Hoth was relieved of his command and sent on leave. In December 1943, he was dismissed entirely and spent the remainder of the war in retirement. Edited by panzerivan - 24 March 2008 at 10:18
	IP Logged

Jack O'Brien SS-Sturmmann Joined: 01 September 2009 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 58	Posted: 19 October 2009 at 06:51
	Hoth certainly looks the part of "German officer". He sounds like an excellent commander. As for Nuremburg everyone knows that was a joke because the Germans were the only ones on trial. Why weren't the allied bomber command put on trial for murdering huge numbers of civilians. Where do you draw the line between liberation and devastation? Ie the Allied idea of liberating French cities eg Caen was to blow them off the map. Hoth has always been one of my favourites... PS and for star wars fans the fact his name is Hoth only makes him all the more awesome lol
	"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it" Erwin Rommel
	IP Logged